EU servers

people using the wrong terms when they complain about things.

people complain about lag and their pings...

they are complaining about the wrong thing.

latency is causing their problem.

Originally Posted by thewesdude

people using the wrong terms when they complain about things.

people complain about lag and their pings...

they are complaining about the wrong thing.

latency is causing their problem.

so are you saying if there ping was displayed as being lower that would mean there latency wouldnt necessarily be lower and so there lag wouldn't be less?

this seems to be the difference between wishing "to have more money" or wishing "to be better off". They both lead to the same result!


if i said "falling out of a high up moving plane was deadly", would you say "no it isnt, its hitting the ground that causes your death"?

Then i could say "no, its actually the speed your hit the ground hat causes your death" and then you would say "no, its the force due to instantaneous deceleration that kills you".

and then i could say "well the force is just a numerical value, like a ping. Its actually your head hitting the pavement that kills you due to shattering your skull into peaces, kind of like latency; The more bits you break into the more dead you are".

Then I would be as bad as you and in the end all the arguments are true and not mutually exclusive, in fact they are complimentary and heavily interlinked!

see, this is why i generally try to stay away from these discussions.

people think they are the same issue when they are not.

how long it takes a ping echo to go from the source to the destination and back does not indicate latency.

even when you go across some networks they will give lower priority rating so those packets may go a totally different route than the route your data packets are actually going.

or even a higher priority.

ping can indicate latency. but latency is not ping. and latency is what determines how smoothly or "lag" you see/experience.

this is one of the reasons why net neutrality is a larger issue than most realize.

when you send a ping from london to phoenix az, you could go through say 20 nodes on the network with a ping time of say 275 ms avg.

your data packets may go through 12 nodes with a latency of 90 ms each way.

i hope that that helps illustrate what i am trying to say.

thewesdude you are being unnecessarily pedantic and so are failing to make your point.

High ping does not cause lag, lag causes high ping. Latency is the time delay between an input and discernable output. In this case latency is being caused by the routing from your computer to the server. A closer server is likely to reduce latency (and thus lag and thus ping) by being routed through a shorter, faster path - but it may not, it may take four steps instead of eight but each step takes twice as long and so you see no difference. But you probably will.

Euro servers are unlikely to split the community, you would simply see another set of servers that you can join whether you are in Europe or not. I will still join a game that is in progress wherever that is (and I suggest you do to).

Like Aszrayel said above, I have made friends playing the game and enjoy playing with/against all of you. The euro-servers will not change this, there will just be more servers to chose from and hopefully some players will get a better experience - which is better for all of us.

EU servers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd say worldwide servers, but, thats just me

And yes I am a Bond Villan stroking my cat

At this point I say. I don't want no EU servers any more.

Originally Posted by Supremeaaron

At this point I say. I don't want no EU servers any more.

Why not?

Just wondering what would turn you off them completely.

I've never played with less than 220ping as far as I am aware (average 235 according to stat net figures) so this is just how the game works for me. I don't mind so much either way but I remember you as being very keen on them before (am I wrong? Could be, it's late at night and I'm not checking back).

To me the main benefit of euro servers is to get a decent crack at playing the Ashrak and Commando at the same pace as the players I'm trying to kill. I suck at both under current conditions.

Originally Posted by Scott Morrison

thewesdude you are being unnecessarily pedantic and so are failing to make your point.

I hope this does not come across as overly harsh written like this. I am a fully qualified trainer and assessor so this is my professional opinion, if I was assessing a course and information was presented the way you were doing this is the feedback I would give to the trainer in a constructive professional discussion. Getting in the way of your own point.

I really can't wait for EU servers, its gotten to the point now where us EUs are a whole second behind ppl in America.

The amount of times I've fired a 'nade at the feet of a Jaffa only to have it do '6' damage because the're not actually standing in the same place on their screens as they are on mine. And all the times I've been killed instantly from the front, by Ashraks flailing wildly 10 feet away is beginnig to grind my gears! The sad thing is I always tend to take it out on them for cheating, even though its not their fault.

Plus Europeans don't tent to dance around like fairly elephants on the battlefield like the yanks do, makes them easier to hit jk

in networking latency and ping are 2 different things.

latency is how long it takes for an individual packet to go from the source to the destination.

in shooters this is the most important part. especially server based shooters.

if i am shooting someone, it is much more important for when i have that head shot lined up, and then take that shot, it is far more important that the server receive that shot packet and process it while they are under the crosshairs.

it is much less important for my client to receive verification that the head shot landed and they died, than my shot being processed ASAP.

i will give you another example that will further try to explain why latency is far more important than ping without going into why ping is irrelevant.

lets take a time table of 2 players shooting each other with a gun. both players have 1 hp.

player A has 40 ms latency
player B has 50 ms latency

0: both players see each other and start lining up their shots
10: player B shoots with player A in crosshairs, sends to server
30: player A shoots with player B in crosshairs, sends to server
60: server receives player B shot that hits player A, killing him
70: server receives player A shot hits player B, but because he is dead is invalidated

makes sense, guy who shot first won. now lets take it to where latency makes a difference

0: both players see each other and line up their shots
10: player B shoots player A, sends it to the server
15: player A shoots player B, sends it to the server
55: player A shot hits the server, killing player B
60: player B shot hits the server, invalidated because he is dead

player B shot first, and died because of latency

this is how server-based shooters work.

in a client based shooters, the servers are usually configured with a "lag time" of up to 250 ms.

in a client based shooter, this is how the 2nd situation would go figuring a packet timeout of 150:
0: both players see each other and line up their shots
10: player B shoots player A, sends it to the server with timestamp
15: player A shoots player B, sends it to the server with timestamp
55: player A shot hits the server, server holds shot for packet timeout
60: player B shot hits the server, server holds shot for packet timeout
160: server verifies players B shot, kills player A as that shot happened first, sends verification to client
165: server drops player A shot, invalidates it as they are dead


server based shooters are horribly intolerant of latency

client based shooters are horribly "wonky" and dont feel right to people who are used to server based shooters for that reason.

just to revisit a point i made earlier.

lets say i am sending data between new york and say moscow.

because it is data of indeterminate priority, my traffic goes from NY to spain to germany to poland to moscow. 4 hops.

now lets say i send an echo ping request from new york and moscow.

because it is data of low priority, it goes from new york, to london, to france, to germany, to poland, to sweeden to moscow. 6 hops.

now lets say i am on a phone call from new york to moscow.

because it is data of high priority, it goes from new york, to germany to poland to moscow. 3 hops.

same distance, different hop counts, different latency. same source to same destination.

latency is a measure of how long it takes to go from the source host to the destination host on the network.

there currently is NO way to accurately measure latency outside of the program, and the program has to be built with means to measure that. UT3 engine does not

ping indicates latency, ping is not a measure of latency. there is no guarantee that the path both to the destination and from the destination back to you is the same path, let alone the same path any data you may be sending to that destination.

Originally Posted by Scott Morrison

Why not?

Just wondering what would turn you off them completely.

I've never played with less than 220ping as far as I am aware (average 235 according to stat net figures) so this is just how the game works for me. I don't mind so much either way but I remember you as being very keen on them before (am I wrong? Could be, it's late at night and I'm not checking back).

To me the main benefit of euro servers is to get a decent crack at playing the Ashrak and Commando at the same pace as the players I'm trying to kill. I suck at both under current conditions.

Hmmm I guess I should have put a lol in. I am for EU servers, I just wanted to be different .

im sure the devs know what we are talking about when we say we want better pings/better latency. Ping might not be the absolute correct term, but it is the term used.

Having EU servers would fix a lot of peoples lag and give us a better gaming experience.

Originally Posted by Jaffakre

im sure the devs know what we are talking about when we say we want better pings/better latency. Ping might not be the absolute correct term, but it is the term used.

Having EU servers would fix a lot of peoples lag and give us a better gaming experience.

plus there ping would be lower!

this thread went from sweden to technobabble.

Originally Posted by Udrian

what are you even arguing about?

Originally Posted by thewesdude

in networking latency and ping are 2 different things.

[...]

Yes they are of course two different things, latency is the delay in time that it takes to send a message, and its measured by either one-way messages or round-trip messages.

Pinging is just a method to send packages from one point to another to see if there is a connection and how long it takes to get there.

the term Ping in computer games is used to describe the average latency at any given time. One big difference in computer game is that you don't use any external ping utility to measure the latency. You often determine it by measuring the time it takes to send existing data packages in game.

Anyway, this is just a definition discussion so I'm not going to answer it any further =P

Originally Posted by Gingir

Just a wondering but if you add in EU servers wouldn't that effectivly kill this game? We don't have much population as it is and splitting it would make game play very slow. Or maybe I misunderstand?

thats what the discussions about we just took an amtrak off track.

Originally Posted by quack.bigduck

thats what the discussions about we just took an amtrak off track.

hehe back to the topic now then... I would like to see some European servers, but i would also be able to log into any other server. I would still just join a server that looks fun (have people) doesn't matter where its from. But it would be nice if it occasionally favored me with the latency

I agree I still want to play with my fellow players from Europe and Australia and would join their servers as well as the US servers.

Again thewesdude, you’ve just added more pedantry and further obfuscated your point. The response to too much is less not more. Let it go and leave it be.

Originally Posted by Gingir

Just a wondering but if you add in EU servers wouldn't that effectivly kill this game? We don't have much population as it is and splitting it would make game play very slow. Or maybe I misunderstand?

I doubt the average user will know which servers are where unless they take note of the existing server references before the euroservers go live or the Devs make a point of designating their physical location on the map screen, It shouldn’t affect the available pool of players much at all.

Originally Posted by Supremeaaron

Hmmm I guess I should have put a lol in. I am for EU servers, I just wanted to be different .

It was absence of the stuck out tongue that threw me. You don’t need to worry, you’ll always be... ‘different’ lol

Originally Posted by thewesdude

in a client based shooter, this is how the 2nd situation would go figuring a packet timeout of 150:
0: both players see each other and line up their shots
10: player B shoots player A, sends it to the server with timestamp
15: player A shoots player B, sends it to the server with timestamp
55: player A shot hits the server, server holds shot for packet timeout
60: player B shot hits the server, server holds shot for packet timeout
160: server verifies players B shot, kills player A as that shot happened first, sends verification to client
165: server drops player A shot, invalidates it as they are dead

But what if I'm playing on a ship orbiting the earth at an altitude of 1000 km and traveling at near the speed of light?

Originally Posted by thewesdude

in networking latency and ping are 2 different things.

latency is how long it takes for an individual packet to go from the source to the destination.

in shooters this is the most important part. especially server based shooters.

if i am shooting someone, it is much more important for when i have that head shot lined up, and then take that shot, it is far more important that the server receive that shot packet and process it while they are under the crosshairs.

it is much less important for my client to receive verification that the head shot landed and they died, than my shot being processed ASAP.

i will give you another example that will further try to explain why latency is far more important than ping without going into why ping is irrelevant.

lets take a time table of 2 players shooting each other with a gun. both players have 1 hp.

player A has 40 ms latency
player B has 50 ms latency

0: both players see each other and start lining up their shots
10: player B shoots with player A in crosshairs, sends to server
30: player A shoots with player B in crosshairs, sends to server
60: server receives player B shot that hits player A, killing him
70: server receives player A shot hits player B, but because he is dead is invalidated

makes sense, guy who shot first won. now lets take it to where latency makes a difference

0: both players see each other and line up their shots
10: player B shoots player A, sends it to the server
15: player A shoots player B, sends it to the server
55: player A shot hits the server, killing player B
60: player B shot hits the server, invalidated because he is dead

player B shot first, and died because of latency

this is how server-based shooters work.

in a client based shooters, the servers are usually configured with a "lag time" of up to 250 ms.

in a client based shooter, this is how the 2nd situation would go figuring a packet timeout of 150:
0: both players see each other and line up their shots
10: player B shoots player A, sends it to the server with timestamp
15: player A shoots player B, sends it to the server with timestamp
55: player A shot hits the server, server holds shot for packet timeout
60: player B shot hits the server, server holds shot for packet timeout
160: server verifies players B shot, kills player A as that shot happened first, sends verification to client
165: server drops player A shot, invalidates it as they are dead


server based shooters are horribly intolerant of latency

client based shooters are horribly "wonky" and dont feel right to people who are used to server based shooters for that reason.

just to revisit a point i made earlier.

lets say i am sending data between new york and say moscow.

because it is data of indeterminate priority, my traffic goes from NY to spain to germany to poland to moscow. 4 hops.

now lets say i send an echo ping request from new york and moscow.

because it is data of low priority, it goes from new york, to london, to france, to germany, to poland, to sweeden to moscow. 6 hops.

now lets say i am on a phone call from new york to moscow.

because it is data of high priority, it goes from new york, to germany to poland to moscow. 3 hops.

same distance, different hop counts, different latency. same source to same destination.

latency is a measure of how long it takes to go from the source host to the destination host on the network.

there currently is NO way to accurately measure latency outside of the program, and the program has to be built with means to measure that. UT3 engine does not

ping indicates latency, ping is not a measure of latency. there is no guarantee that the path both to the destination and from the destination back to you is the same path, let alone the same path any data you may be sending to that destination.

Hmmmmmmm.................

I played Xsteel for a good while, with 200-250ms ping, im guessing that why (now) i died a lot, even though im not one for hidding, and charge stright for the enemy, still get in a few kills, but not as many as i probably should have,

and why on wow at 100 odd ping i was much better at pvp (still died a lot, but i certainly killed a helva lot better, only lost 1 game in all the ones i played -undead Horde mage)

Being new to the forums i'm wondering if devs have actually said anything about will there be EU servers in the future?
Thinking about buying the game, but i dont want to be lagging all the time...

Originally Posted by Cyberh

Being new to the forums i'm m wondering if devs have actually said anything about will there be EU servers in the future?
Thinking about buying the game, but i dont want to be lagging all the time...

Have a search, but yes EU servers are being looked at